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Transcript

[00:00:02] Intro: This is Tim Delhaes, and you're listening to the DAOTalks podcast. In each episode, you'll hear me talk to builders and makers of Web three. Together we'll be exploring our multi chain future, share personal stories and discuss how we're investing, experimenting and failing with the startups that define the future. So join me on this journey of discovery as a chat with these leaders change makers and misfits about tech life, the universe and everything. 

[00:00:32] Tim: Today, I'm talking to Marcus and Stefan Co-founders from Genesis and Genesis Bay. We're gonna be talking about their new product and how it has the potential to revolutionise payments not only for safe users, but for banks at large. The journey to it and advice for Web three founders in the bear market. Marcos Stefan Chino. Welcome to this podcast. Thank you for joining. Where are you guys

[00:01:06] Marcus: today? Good. Thanks for inviting us, Tim. I am in Brazil at the moment with a

[00:01:12] Stefan: Yeah. Thanks for having us, Tim. I'm right now in Berlin. Usually I'm based in Lisbon, but yeah, next couple of weeks, I will be here in Berlin.

[00:01:19] Tim: All right. Good. Then let's jump right into it. And I like to do this on the podcast rather than giving long introductions. We reached out because I was particularly excited to see what you guys are doing with Genesis pay. There isn't really that much information available online about it. So I started gathering up the pieces and I was like, Well, I'm just going to invite you guys over and ask you directly. What's it all about? So tell me a bit of the back story. I would love to hear. You know, you guys are entrepreneurs. I'm an entrepreneur. I like to hear. What problem did you guys see? Was this something that just came up on the way or that you've been thinking about for the last 10 years? And now was the opportunity to do it? What problem did you see? And you know, how did it come about?

[00:02:05] Stefan: It's actually kind of funny story of how everything started because the original idea to no pay came out of the ski retreat. So me and Marcus, we are both joining a ski organised by the founders pledged, which is an organisation that allows founders to contribute to courses. And yeah, we were in the ski retreat and we had a lot of time like talking about what we are doing in our daily lives. And I explained to them what we are doing at and what kind of infrastructure we are building. And he was the CEO of Salt Pay, a big payments infrastructure company based in UK. And he explained what they are doing at Salt Bay at the time, and it kind of became obvious that at this point we have solved a lot of the problems that payments is also facing just in a decentralised way. And all of those discussions came the idea of OK, let's work together to bridge those two worlds together because right now both worlds are kind of isolated. On the one hand, you have crypto, which has been kind of developed in its own bubble over the last 10 years. And then, of course, we have the more traditional payments industry, which is also has been going great. But there has been limits in terms of how innovation was applied and yeah, ultimately we have to connect those two worlds. Otherwise, we're not going to make any difference in any of those, and that's what we tried to explore, like, how can we bridge the gap between real world actually like payments today and how we do payments on Blockchain.

[00:03:41] Tim: One question. So when was that ski? We see? When was that ski retreat? And where were you guys?

[00:03:48] Stefan: All right. And it was 2021 February, I believe in in the French jobs.

[00:03:54] Tim: Good. All right. And so you were both attending Marcos. You were back then. The company you're working for at that point was that your startup or you were working for a different company and just happened to produce this crossover?

[00:04:08] Marcus: No. So the funny thing is that throughout my career, I've always cheered that I've always been part of the only teams early stage. But I was actually not founder of which these days is also known as they have recently changed LA but yeah, like first five guys in the ground, we brought the business from zero to very large in very short period of time and became one of the most rapid grows in UK but also Europe. So I mean, the funny thing is, you see crypto projects and things being very good at solving extremely complex technology. And but what not aware or at least majority of them from those that I met till now are not aware that actually in payments or in editing world, you're actually using 1967 standards built today, and majority of the largest players or banks in the world are precisely 92 out of the top 100 are still relying on mainframe and well, old fashioned technology to run most of its operation or transactional operation. So when I start giving those datas to Stefan, obviously with his brilliant architectural model, it was like, Well, it's not possible. And the more we research, the more we realise that actually crypto has resolved most of the problems. We were just not connected to the Fiat world, So initially it took us some time to figure out how to do this. Therefore, we took so long to basically kick off. But as soon as we we understood the angle, we set time to jump in and basically make the time. And so we started as a joint venture between and know that and later on, we understood the focus and the size of the opportunity was too big to be under either entity or B. So we basically spin off and started a new story.

[00:06:07] Tim: That's a very good introduction. Very interesting. Love it. Now, I personally would also tend similar, like to your guys' experience to someone to say, Hey, there is something that works with 1976 technology. You go like, Oh, my God, it must be terrible. You know, in other cases, you actually go like, Oh, it's actually a proven technology, right? Like And why change a working system and you could make that argument. So what I'm curious about is, rather than thinking about hey, this is an old technology. The question really being What did you guys see? That was fundamentally wrong for the customer. In the end, that was a result of this outdated technology. And what was the opportunity that you saw coming out of this for the different stakeholders participating in the system?

[00:06:54] Marcus: So even though it's in 1967 I completely agree with you. If you actually look at payments and banking, you hardly ever have an issue where you migrate from country to country. B. So you run out badly If you have a card from Europe or US or any other place in the world. And as long as there's a visa sign MasterCard sign, you should be able to spend your funds from a very far away country endlessly and not even have to think about rep. Of how the money goes from your bank account to the merchant that you are committing to bank Now, even though it's all sound beautiful on the front end, the players in the back end, you keep increasing the cost to maintain this legacy. So imagine now you have an iPhone trying to talk to a 1967 standard. It itself is not a technology entity, right? So they have a something called the processor to handle the transaction on their behalf Now the processor was also created in the nineties, so they needed somebody else to handle what they could not handle with the evolution of technology or a gateway. Then a gateway was also not able to fulfil the latest technology, so they basically they call it PSP. Then the PSP was actually not able to do it anymore. So then they call another aggregator. And then there's another aggregator to the degree that today we have at minimum 10 players participating in this money movement between your bank account and the point of sale. Not to make this a super theoretical thing, but if I would actually make this to the reality that I've been fighting for the past 15 years, the more players the more cost of capital for this transaction to happen, the more cost of capital for the job more expensive to the producer as to the buyer, which means you have a direct impact in a country's GDP. So if I basically think about the cost of a transaction in 2 to 3% in the best case scenario, you actually these days back in the days used to be a fact distributed between five parties. Now you're talking about minimum profits between the 10 parties, whereas actually all they're doing is fulfilling this latest connectivity because the previous party is not able to scale more of their systems. So in our vision, with OK, we cannot change the front end consumers and sellers or merchants and card holders, they know what they know, which is they know how to put a term a card in the terminal. They know how to put a passport. They know how, basically to commit between one another and the back end. It's in nobody's interest that they're all wasting money to maintain the legacy. It's everybody's interest to have something that is more efficient and scalable. So let's start with the back end. Let's make something that it is more scalable. Let's plug into and I don't make a distinction between two worlds. I actually think the world is up to those that are consuming, though. If the Web three provider wants to only do things for crypto users, then we should have a way to speak with them. If there's a Fiat provider that wants only to do Fiat transaction, let's have a way to stick her down. But if you have a hybrid world where one wants to go to the other side because they feel like they can support one another to be bigger, then let's support those guys. I guess this is a bit of the background, makes the you want a couple of them here.

[00:10:29] Stefan: I think you gave a pretty extensive like summary already, but yeah, ultimately, I think what we see is you want NF crypto which is lightly in the head of technology with, like what the current like legacy payment world is running on. At the same time, it's very clear, like you cannot replace technology from one day to another, so you have to find a hybrid approach. Otherwise you're not gonna make it effectively. We like to compare the bit to Skype. Skype was the first protocol that allowed peer to peer phone calls. I was a very early user of Skype, and it was great for me to call other friends on the Internet. But at the same time, there was still the old landline system, and I still had to use the old system in order to call my parents and so on. And at some point, then Skype introduced Skype and Skype out, and that allowed me then to actually call from my Skype account into the old landlines and also even allowed my parents to call me via Skype while using the old landline system. And, of course, if we look at the infrastructure today, then this call here as well as every other call, is running over voice over IP, and no one's using landlines anymore and we see we have to get a similar kind of tradition for the financial transactions. Right now we have, on the one hand, Blockchain transactions, On the other hand, like legacy, like old world kind of transactions happening via MasterCard. We have to connect those two to allow a transition to towards actually transacting more on these entire technologies. And that's what we are building with no space. The bridge. How do you interact between those two worlds?

[00:12:04] Tim: Very good. I love the analogy and you talk about, you know, Skype in and particularly I get Skype out, you know, money going out. I think the idea of, you know, just like saying, Hey, my parents still use landlines in 2000 or 2005 or 2010 or whatever. And you know, I'm on my computer and I can call, and I can call out a land line makes a lot of sense as much as to say, Hey, you know, everyone who has any money today has a credit card and they're gonna keep on using that credit card and their transactions right? And it's this interface between the merchant, you know, online and offline and the consumer doing the spending, and that might all change. But that is not at the forefront of the change. Right? You guys see this as something that this might change or not, or it will change. But this doesn't change tomorrow, right? It's a habit. It's the system that's going to stay like Do we agree? Yeah, Good. So I see that right? And then on the other side of the system, you see, there's, you know, Fiat World, and there's the Blockchain crypto web Three world and obviously the traditional finance world runs on old systems that can be improved. But as I I see it, you guys are also not in the immediate focus on trying to change the world of finance. You correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not running around and trying to sell your system to banks. What I'm seeing is hey, we get your credit card for your safe, right? So you also have a very particular vision about bridging Blockchain technology to this, you know, more traditional credit card world.  What did you see there specifically? I'm interested in you know how this  vision then ended up becoming a specific product with specific features. Right? And I would assume, you know, Stefan, with your experience and background and Genesis and safe, you must have seen something with your safe users where you said, Hey, you know, there's really something that what everybody is asking for or nobody asked for it. But you guys thought it's a great idea, Like let's go into the product in this specific solution,

[00:14:16] Stefan: Maybe once. For Gregson, we absolutely want to change the financial world. We all want to do that right? Of course we all want to do that. But I think similar to kind of how Skype, even though today Skype is not an important company anymore, it had a significant importance in the transition to digital communication. And we see the need or the opportunity to accomplish something that will allow something similar to our finance financial transactions. And indeed, our goal is banks will operate and work with us that banks operate on those pay. So that indeed is exactly what we want. Of course, that is not possible right now, and of course, the low head recruiters to on board crypto native users because we know them very well. We know how we can reach them through our channels. But we're also talking to neo banks to make them aware of the opportunities. And they also be become increasingly aware of the opportunities in Blockchain. And we will try to actually integrate them as well on their end and make their users also users of our infrastructure. So that is definitely on the kind of longer term to long term plan. But then, yeah, of course, coming back to like what is actually the product right now, and why do we build it? So obviously, today, if you want to offer anything that is competitive, it has to be accepted everywhere effectively, Otherwise you're not gonna be able to distribute the product. It's a two sided marketplace and with the MasterCards have, of course, the biggest reach with 80 million merchants. So the great thing is, we don't necessarily have to onboard 18 million merchants ourselves and just tap into their network at the same time. What we do is we build the bid right into their network to allow users to actually spend crypto from their non custodial accounts, and that is actually a very nice  value proposition, and we don't even have to look far to see validation of it. Look at the amount of cards and volumes done by Binance and crypto dot com with their own cards, which are actually operating at pretty bad conditions for their customers. So if you're using the Binance card, Binance will say 0% fee. But in fact, there's a spread on every crypto that you're spending about 5%. And so using those cards actually very costly. It is still something that many customers like to use because it's for them the most convenient option, actually, to spend their crypto. And, yeah, now we are lowering this bar even further. You don't even have to go to a centralised exchange. You can keep your money on the network. You don't have to trust any of those exchanges, and you can still spend everything that you have very easily anywhere.  The MasterCard are accepted, and first of all, for the user, it's a better user experience. And for those who are concerned about self custody, which increasing amount of users is for them, it's also just a safe for like a more let's say safe way to operate and make sure that exchange cannot steal your funds. And basically, like we saw this also, especially with the safe that after FCX got, well, unfortunately, bankrupt, we saw just the days after this happened a massive amount of bottles flowing. All the other centres exchanges as well, like literally billions and billions of dollars left binance other centre exchanges because people didn't trust them anymore and said they wanted to have full control over their funds. And so they moved all the funds and save contracts, and now the funds are unsafe contracts. They still want to have the utility that they had previous on binance. That's what we offer with this card. So now you can spend those funds easily, anywhere.

[00:17:54] Tim: Let's pick up a series of questions there. So the first one is. Obviously, the issue of trust in centralised exchanges is a big thing. So would you be able to put a number to what was the aftermath of FPX actually meant for safe in terms of increase of usage? Were you able to correlate in numbers? The events like you obviously had organic growth somewhere, but what did you notice? I'm just on a side question

[00:18:22] Stefan: here. It's very concrete numbers because obviously we track everything on chain you could see literally like billions leaving binance and moving into state contracts. So that happened just few days after the FDX blew up. That was very clearly correlated to this event. So I think we could see that this, of course, was like a beginning, very like high flow out of funds, and that kind of eventually faded out. But of course, there's still a very significant amount. And I think in general, awareness is increasing of self custody being important and especially binance like you just saw with another exchange like which exchange was OK, I guess I'm not entirely sure anymore. But one of them there's very high doubt that the UCT balance is actually what they hold on the exchange right now. So just generally you should never trust any of them. Because why should you like ultimately, if you have possibility to mitigate it? And at this point, it's not really a big user experience issue anymore. So I think you experience right now is pretty good, and it's more about increasing advance.

[00:19:27] Tim: You know, I always think about it. I'm happy for this in general and happy for you guys. That the Gnosis and safe team. That's kind of the silver lining of the FTX Deba, right? You know, increase awareness about self custody and shift to self custody and, you know, multi sick wallet. So again, that's the silver lining on it. Now, going back to general here, I get the point about the self custody and, you know, not trusting a centralised exchange, obviously. And I think the value proposition for somebody that already you know is doing self custody and is running unsafe. The value proposition is pretty obvious. What? I'm interested if you take this self custody aspect out of the equation for a second, practically speaking at our company to have a B account, we have a bank account and we have safe account, and we move the money between it. We have all of our 99% of our money in a safe. But obviously we need to fund the credit card. So we send money to bin, you know, 10-K here, pay the software, you know, 10-K to the other thing. You know, another bank, and pay it there. And this Obviously I see an administrative aspect there. But there's the convenience. I see that and I see the point about not trusting centralised exchanges and relying on self custody. Would you be able to point out other specific benefits where you say would say, Hey, here's another few reasons why you really want to use this? You hinted already at a few, but I would love to kind of like, spell them out.

[00:21:01] Stefan:  Of course, I think ultimately what we're doing is we make payments. Compos right, like the beauty of Blockchain is that you can have a compos system where everyone can enhance the experience, because the permission, the system and the same is now what we do with no day, we create a permission to system that any developer can enhance and interesting. That I think can influence also how the relationship between merchants and customers can be. Previously, this was kind of very like there was not a really direct connection. You just pay and that's it. Now I think we open the door for the customer to share more information with the merchant. If they want to. We can create interesting new kind of loyalty programmes. For example, the merchant could allow the customer to pull up or like an NFT, showcasing that they did a certain purchase in the past. I think a lot of different things that can be done potentially, I think. Also on the Visa transaction side, we can try to replace certain parts of the transaction with more centralised technology. I think there's a few good examples like three DS is a good example that is used for two factor authentication of larger online transactions. Right now, if you do a three DS transaction, then you have to log into your bank account, confirm and that's it. Now we can do it with, like a site message of your privacy. Many other cool things. So, for example, you could get credit on while you're spending. If you have assets, you can use that collateral. Borrow like stable coins against your collateral. Spend on the fly. Reduce your fees that you have for credit because they're much cheaper and defied when you actually spend credit via credit card. So I think there are many ways we can enhance experience, but they mark what do you want to add?

[00:22:43] Marcus: Well, I would just add one thing You have to look at those pay right now as an infrastructure layer that enables this world to talk, and you look at the tribe owners and let's say it's meta miles or X one. And those are the ones creating specific value to the specific group of people that want to follow that tribe or want to use that tribe. So our job is to make show that first of all, they have a revenue stream from now onwards because essentially, by actually having a card connecting to the decentralised balance, are now basically generating money to themselves that they can use this as incentive back to their own tribe. And you can use that as cash back. You can use that in loyalty programmes. You can connect to multiple types of projects that can enable them to become the first decentralised bank. So with this card, you're connected to a checking account right, which is a safe address where you can see your balances in their app and their user will basically will have their experience when using this card. Then they can also be connected to a savings account investment account and how do you track those funds you can basically control from the APP. You unlock a new world of a new version of a new bank that actually can offer different types of yields different types of financial products that the Web three world has experienced. But the fi out world. The regulars do not have access today and maybe once. Add on to this because you started your question with why changing the technology? Because what we're doing right now is the backend change to enable this. But the front end. It's beautiful. We have terminals that can accept cards in 80 million merchants. We have phones, you can talk to those terminals and those ordinary merchants with billion plus card holders. So for that the world has this. And then you have this new range of service providers that can come in and start thinking about the and we're Skype. We're just the voice over IP saying, You choose whatever you choose. Whatever service, I would just basically help those guys to migrate from point A to point B in a much more efficient way.

[00:25:12] Tim: Very good. I hadn't thought this far, and I didn't see this on the presentation, so But that makes a lot of sense, and I think that is very, very interesting. Now talk me and you know the people listening to this or watching this through, how does this actually work? Because my first thought was when I looked at it when I looked at the website, I was like, So how does this actually technically work in the background? And, you know, I went over the FA Q and the first thing that came, you know, that popped into, you know, my face was like, OK, yeah, it's based in Europe And I was like, OK, so I do need a company again or I need a person or I just need a safe or can in the future do it with my media mask or any externally owned account or what happens behind the curtain today. And where is it possibly going? And where is it still the limitations of this?

[00:26:03] Stefan: Of course I can give you the gist of it. What we are going to launch with curves is implementation on loss chain Layer one. No chain for those who don't know is a Layer one network that is like equivalent to Ethereum running the exact same stack in terms of execution and consensus kinds and no pay. The first word will run directly on this network. So what happens when you actually pay? When you pay, a message is sent via the PS terminal to a payment, like through a payment processor. To us, we have integrated as payment processor such that at the time when the user wants to pay. We can verify, graphically that the user has given us permission to withdraw the amount he wants to spend from his account. To start with, we only accept euro tokens. So it's very simple for us to reason about what kind of model we have to deduct from US balance when we have the cryptographic proof that we can do this. Then we confirm to the issuer that this payment is OK and we deduct this from the US account. So it's pretty, uh, straightforward.

[00:27:11] Tim: And this account. So when you say you're deducting from this account, clarify for me again. What is this account?

[00:27:17] Stefan: Very important question. So every user and also pay is using a safe account under the And for those who don't know, save save is smart contract account a smart public account allows to define the rights under which the account can be accessed. So it's different from an E a account U. A account is controlled by a private key. Either you add the private key, or you don't either control to everything or nothing. The smart account. You can define exactly the access rights under which you can access this account, and what we did is we defined rules that allow us as a payment processor to access your account, the amount of money you are willing to kind of give to us for payments. Uh, when you actually do a payment. And that's implemented as a rule into the smart contract account and say, And the great thing is he doesn't have to think about gas costs or any of this when doing a transaction, it just taps and pays and rests being taken care of by us at the same time. It's still a long disord account.

[00:28:17] Tim: So if he said, Can I think about this like the withdrawal limits where I can say, Hey, you know, I can withdraw this and this without the multi sick. It's basically delegating this and saying, Hey, the payment processor can take whatever $100 a day and do whatever. And if it's large in that, I'm getting an alert and you know I need to whatever sign for it or increase the limit or whatever is that? Is that how to think about it? Yes, and that is already part of the smart contracts of the current safe. That's that

[00:28:48] Stefan: correct. That is correct. That

[00:28:50] Tim: was a generic function that was already available. Or did you guys proactively deploy this with Genesis? Pay in mind?

[00:28:59] Stefan: So this was for us already quite some time ago, but it also perfectly fits this use case. There would be even more sophisticated ways to project the user account, But this is good for the staff because it's heavily tested and used in production for many years now and for now, also, based on our user research, that's a very acceptable let's, say, access right that the users are willing to give to us in order to pay so what you can. In fact, we do. You can with the spending module. That's how we call it can define exactly who what kind of asset, what kind of amount and what kind of time frame can be access in your account. And so what the When he signs up for No Space says like OK, I want to spend a certain amount of euro to per day and we are the only one processor is allowed to access those funds and those constraints in mind. We can set everything up very easily and you go, yeah, well protected. And, of course, if he wants to spend more than this, then he asked to update those settings. But it's all straightforward, a little bit like if you hit the limit on your credit card and you have to kind of top it up menu via your your phone map. Same process. But this time, everything is rapidly ensured. And, yeah, all the assets in your you say otherwise, protected who your self restored your wallet and to answer the question as well. Like it works with any U a account. As you know, like you have a new a account who is an owner in the state, and this U a account can be any obviously, so it can be a mega mouse account. Any U, a wallet, basically, that is working also with no chain works. But most of them have integrated those chain, so most of them don't have to change to install new wallet. They can just use whatever they have

[00:30:41] Marcus: one important add-on, even though we're blocking the funds in those safe accounts at the moment of the authorization. So let's say you're in front of the customer. Sorry. In front of the merchant, you transact $20. We need to block those $20. Remove those $20 from your account. It goes into a smart contract, which is not owned by Noses Bay. We don't have the rights to touch those funds. That contract basically is in the possession of the issue, which is the one responsible for settling within Visa and the acquired network that eventually pay the merchant. So essentially we do, of course, the liquidation of this contract using a partner in Europe, which is malaria. As majority of the countries are euro currency. But again, for the different countries, different stables can be used, and eventually we're gonna also allow different assets crypto assets to be used in the strong black chain. So it's 100% secure that it will not be touched by us. It's only between the user and those that are allowed to touch funds, which are licence and regulated consoles.

[00:31:49] Tim: Yeah, the issue is right. Like that was exactly the question. OK, and that answers pretty much my next question with that, which is why you're rolling out in a specific region because it depends on the issuer. And I now see the relationship between Save the Contract. You described the issuer heart and the merchant very, very clear. So in order to concrete for anyone who's listening and wants to, you know, sign up early and get on the list, this means you need to be a person or a business in Europe to be able to do that, Or s it gonna be available for individuals as well as businesses or just one of the two

[00:32:28] Marcus: modular? It starts with individuals in EE A and UK, so including Switzerland, including Gibraltar. But essentially individuals that we like at the car that live in those draught can subscribe to those first batch subsequently. To that, it comes the businesses in the same region and hopefully in the next podcast we can announce the US and also Asia, which is gonna be in our road map for the 1st 12 months. The whole type guys in the US and guys in Asia were coming.

[00:33:06] Tim: That's very interesting. Specific in Europe. Does anyone already have a card except for you guys likely testing it? Are you already rolling out to users or are you still holding back? And there's still things that you need to get done,

[00:33:18] Marcus: so we have not rolled yet to users. We're gonna do it closer to dot com, and that had to do with some bureaucracies on the business side. So production slots for cards to be manufactured. I mean silly things. So we focus too much on the technology

[00:33:35] Tim: side. You can't just mint the cards.

[00:33:40] Marcus: Not yet. I think we were super stressed about the technology. At first. It is a very complex journey to connect both worlds, and we left a bit of science agreements with manufacturers and, like Step and likes to say, technology in our story seems to be the most complex part. But it's only 30% of Beijing. Probably 70% of the issue lies on teaching regulators well, what it is that we're doing and while getting there you are and allowing us to basically push those cards. We have insurers issuing cards, which per definition, we are in the regulated path. We have to prove that this is the best way of moving fund like FDX. Thank you guys for actually doing what you were because you've made our life a little bit easier in terms of explaining to the future. The way you were set is not the way to go. And I guess that adds a lot to explain to dummies like me. Yeah, How crypto can actually be a great solution. Perfect

[00:34:38] Tim: transition into this to it. The last question. So one is When do you expect the cards to actually roll out in Europe? Nobody's gonna hold you to it. But what is your guess at this point?

[00:34:48] Stefan: Say we had this this conference decon that organised by us in mid September in Berlin Hopefully at de might be a bit later, but we're not talking about many months later, like if later they'll be talking about a couple of weeks later to, of course, make sure that the product we are selling is really mature and we're not facing many issues. So we're gonna test now a lot. I'm paying a lot with my car these days to see that it works in every situation. But the expectation is, sometime in September,

[00:35:20] Tim: very good. And, Marcus, you just touched on this as part of not printing the cards. But in terms of like talking to regulators for everyone, that is not in the space of regulation and just an end user apart from regular banking regulation when it comes to issuing cards, are you affected through being a pro call and not a company or and how far is, you know, Genesis to one or another legal entity actually having to be involved in this and last, you know, Is this going to be a big difference between what you're doing in Europe and what you're planning to do in the US, or is it pretty much all the same?

[00:36:03] Marcus: Great question. First of all, the beautiful thing about this is as a user with decentralised funds like I mentioned, you can have your checkings account savings accounts, investment accounts, so you're allowed to have whatever types of accounts the funds that you want to basically transact in the point of sale. Those funds need to have a clearance from a AM L money laundry, the typical practise of validating the plants origin. And then again, you put them in a specific safe address, which is essentially the same address that we can basically connect to the cards and then you use it the moment of a vaccine. Do we need to have a regulated entity as a no state? No. But at the same time again, if you go back into the analogy on Skype or Skype to ensure that voice over IP was the future in that moment in time, which was that present? We are taking additional precautions and run on things to relax regulators or to basically give them comfort and introduce them to the industry in a much more gentle way. So almost like holding their hat. Come with us. Look what we're doing. Here's how we're doing. That's why you should be OK with this model, and that's not we have to. But that's we are, well, the additional steps we're taking to secure this layer to that we're building and ensuring that only legit money traced money is basically sitting in that layer. We have a separate entity configuration as no space, but that has to do more with the scalability of the regulated world. Think about it in the US. Don't bridging in your question to the US. You need a a slightly different step thing than in Europe, because Europe recognise stables as a money. So it's much easier to basically connect stables to the point of sale. Whereas US, it's still I mean, some people say it's pretty OK the way it is for us to move in, but at the same time, the B sponsor or the banks that we need to be connected in the US they're still treating as digital assets is something that I don't want to touch. And therefore with the help of Visa, which, by the way, has been very friendly and supporting us at this stage, we're actually able to have a solution in the US that actually can be rolled out. So from a technology point of view, we're ready to go pretty much everywhere. So whatever set thing we have in Europe also works in the US also works in Asia. But for us to be allowed to issue cards in those places. That's where we need to go and knock the doors. Get the local player to be with us in every time we're issuing the cards until we have our own entity that is allowed to have the right directly to users.

[00:38:55] Tim: Got it makes a lot of sense. I see, uh, how that is coming together, guys. In respect to your time, I want to ask a few questions going off topic. I don't know if you want to add anything to Genesis pay here. I obviously could ask a bunch more questions, but I feel we covered the fundamentals. You know, for anyone who is using safe today and is wondering what this is about and how this is going to work and can I trust it? And what's the difference to my BINANCE card and so on? Is there anything you guys want to add before I slightly change subject for five minutes?

[00:39:27] Marcus: Yeah, maybe just one final thing. I mean, the invitation right now is for all wallets out there and web through world. First of all, they what I consider revenue model. We have a revenue model ready to go for EE a customers in the UK. So if they want to be with us, we're happy to basically sign them and make sure that they can issue cards with their brands for their tribes. And then we have different models that they can basically choose from, and I think that's one call that I would like to make. A second call that I would like to make is this is just a kick off. It's not about having everything right, but we have to consider the most stressing and problematic ingredients to ensure that there is no longer a barrier between Web three and and hopefully with you guys in Web three. We can actually do a lot further, so an invitation to please reach out. If you feel like there's a dream that we can do together, we're definitely happy to collaborate and make sure that we can do something much

[00:40:28] Stefan: stronger. Maybe one call to action by side. Go to nopa dot com and you can sign up already for the waitlist, and we will let you know as soon as you can actually get the card.

[00:40:38] Marcus: Yes, very good 

[00:40:40] Tim: DAO talks is brought to you by grindery If you enjoyed this podcast, consider subscribing to dial talks on Apple podcast, Spotify, Google or any other platform. You fancy to find out more about grid visit grid dot IO. Thanks for joining me, Tim. Out.

Follow us and the Guests here: 

Team Grindery

Tim Delhaes, Co-founder and CEO of Grindery

Team Gnosis

Stefan George, Co-Founder and CTO of Gnosis Pay

Marcos Nunes, Co-Founder & CEO of Gnosis Pay